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Re: IGLU@eGroups
I'll try to answer all in one blow...
Noam:
> The problem with egroups is the commercial. Evem if I put in my
> digital signature it will break in and make the digital signature
> broken. Listar doesn't break into if there's a signature.
so don't sign messages to the list. I doubt anyone here bothers to check
them. also, for a list like ours, I'll shell the $5 a month from my
pocket to make it ad free...
Heruth:
> I use e-groups for archiving purposes only. My list actually runs on
> listproc somewhere else, but it is archived on e-groups. This gives
> me a web-based archive, with search, and in fact gives me all the
> extras like the calendar and polls - though I don't really use them -
> but the e-mails themselves are passed intact.
listproc is fine and dandy, but it means only someone with access to the
server, many times only ROOT on that server, will be able to make
fundamental changes. Egroups has all the infrastructure for managers to
remote manage it.
Ilya:
> > * spam protected web archives
>
> A list of Linux gurus, and nobody jumps to implement it?
> I mean, what is it all about? hiding of e-mail? a web interface
> to shoot an email message?
nobody bothers, and the poor CGI we had on linux.org.il died
misteriously at some point.
why reinvent the wheel?
> > * polls
>
> Err, have my own poll script in PHP (requires cookies for some
> vote validation - actually a feature - but it can be removed)
> I will open-source it :)
again, the wheel has already been invented for us, and noone but
Jonathan has root access to the server, we can't force him to put PHP on
it, it usually means some recompiles and headaches, nothing wrong with
the one on Egroups.
> > * chat room for online meetings
>
> IRC. #linux-il as it was sometimes offered, and then, as I recall
> others told we already have #linux and said it's unnecessary.
#linux is even more unfriendly to newbies than this list was 3 years
ago. also, to discuss IGLU-specific issues (meeting times and places) we
need a more intimate channel.
> Ariel already keeps a #linux-il channel on EFNet, as far as I know.
> What's about eGroups? They offer a JAVA chat?
> Or their own IRC server? (joy)
a Java client, which leaves out the bother of configuring an IRC client
just to hook up. no IRC gateway, sorry, but nobody stops you from using
EFnet too, I just won't go there.
> > * calendar of events, and other cool features too many to list here
>
> Enough gurus here to code it. Should be a part of the newly
> designed site. I really wanna do it with PHP etc. I plan to do it.
> If I wasn't to study physics now, I'd probably be doing it.
> (damn, promises, promises...)
exactly. see wheel reinvention clause above.
> > * better return time of messages from the list (Listar shortened
> > majordomo's response time from hours to minutes, Egroups takes usually
> > only seconds)
>
> Now, why that happens? Is Ely's server too overloaded? How come
who cares. we have a great value-added solution, why look for fixes to
an inferior system?
> the US-located (I guess) Egroups would have superior delivery
> time than ours? Egroups is probably overloaded while we can
> always set up a box nearly dedicated.
but we DON'T, and there is a system dedicated and OPTIMIZED for that
purpose. we have lots of things we can do to add headache, but this lug
does not have a propper webmaster even, none that ever lasted over a
month at least. this way there is always someone to run the list because
the interface frees you from having to be root or anything.
> > I can tell you I have been using their service for over 2 years now very
> > happily. I don't mind even donating the monthly $5 it costs to keep the
> > ads away. I don't get any spam through them either.
>
> Is Linux-IL a big source of spam? Is it harvested? Any evidence?
I believe the plasma-gate archives are. since the addresses are not
linked anymore, I can't say if it still is, as my dedicated return
address doesn't get spammed (yet). fact is too many here got the same
spams (like me and Omer Zak get frequent spam in Turkish).
Nadav:
> However, protecting the archive isn't enough for protecting the list
> members: Spammers can register to mailing lists, get all the email
> from the list and harvest the emails in them. It's trivial to do :(
it's too much bother, only effective if you are going to do direct
marketing, in which case, we may politely ask the guy trying to sell us
Linux goods to use the right channels next time. spammers usually gather
addresses from mailto: links and nntp servers.
> Then it wouldn't even help removing the emails from the archive. The
> best approach would be to have a good filter using words in the
> message and blacklists: I'm so pleased with my filters that I
> stopped caring whether my email address gets harvested - less than
> 1% of the spam gets through them. I even post to usenet with my real
> address :)
that's nuts. those filters are always bumping false positives or are too
loose. I won't have that on a list.
> But it rarely takes more than a few minutes to deliver everything, as
> far as I noticed, so I don't see what the problem is. This mailing
> list isn't for real-time chat.
true, but in rare ocasions it's useful. like Choo says, it doesn't
bother us to have features we don't use, and I add: especially if it
doesn't harm other functionality or privecy.
Oleg:
> Are we discussing a mid-flight change of the whole modus operandi of a
> fairly active mailing list that will require a significant adjustment
> on the part of every subscriber?
nope, if we vote yes (use it for tests for a week and then decide) then
the list of subscribers moves from huji to one of the managers (me or
Alex for now), and we add everybody in bulk the first
time. linux-il@cs.huji and linux-il@linux.org.il will point to egroups,
it should be swift and painless.
>> * choice of reading online, in Email, full digests or header digests
>What don't we have? Header digests? Not a big deal, IMHO.
I didn't know we had digests in listar, I stand corrected, and header
digests ARE smaller. they only list headers and links directly to the
full messages in the archive. really useful IMHO.
>> * calendar of events,
>Not important either. I see nothing wrong with announcements on the
>list - what's so difficult about saving the mail or looking up the
>archive?
because people DON'T. I got some 8-9 requests to resend the meeting
announcement in private Email. makes little sense.
>How many events a month do we anticipate? Again, nothing the
>minimal amount of discipline on the part of the site maintainer can't
WHAT maintainer? the webmaster-for-a-month we appoint once a year? come
on! I push meetings, organize rooms, and help people find rides, I don't
want to bother with editing HTML, and our temp webmaster apperently
didn't care to post the announcement about it to the site (nor even a
link to the Haifux site). gimme a break.
events will be meetings of any of the local clubs (Haifa, Herzlia and
soon I hope Jerusalem), upcoming internatinal linux events, comdex,
whatnot.
>handle (he can be emailed with the details - why do we need fancy
>solutions?). I suppose a normal person keeps a schedule of his/her
>own, and will consult that schedule rather than check various web
>sites over and over again.
the calendar on Egroups sends prescheduled messages to the list if
requested. and there will be a central place to update events by ENYONE
ON THE LIST, no need to trust a single contact webmaster-of-the-month.
>> * remote management can be delegated dynamicly to any group member
>Is there a real need for that? The question carries no irony. Maybe
>there is a serious problem here, and I just don't feel it as a
>subscriber.
I do. all those unsub requests on the list drive me mad sometimes, and I
can't do s*&t about it. if a few people are managers, (nd as many as we
want can be appointed) te problems are squashed sooner. letters send to
linux-il-owner in the last few weeks waited for Vadik to read them once
a month. UNACCEPTABLE. also Ely has expressed his lack of interest in
running the list, Vadik also did it because it was given to him, not out
of extreme devotion or anything. this LUG should take care of itself.
finally Choo, I agree with almost all you have said, your question about
the speed of replies:
> 3. the point of routing email via the USA instead of via a local
> (israeli) point is quite valid - most ISPs have plenty of bandwidth
> to the IIX (israeli internet exchange), while they strugle for every
au contrtair, the IIX was many times overloaded, and only lately has
opened up a bit.
http://www.services.co.il/iix/
still some of the trunks are evidently hosed. and I assume SMTP packets
are set to lower precedence...
also, who said all the subscribers are Israeli?
> free byte of bandwidth abroad. ira - can you comment on this issue,
> using real-life experience (e.g. do you know of another mailing list
> that is mostly israeli, that uses a USAian list archiver?).
not in person, except for my own 35 person tech news list, which works
like a charm.
so, once more, please visit the site, try to subscribe and play with the
features. if no one objects, or maybe even decides it's the coolest
thing since modular monolithic kernels, we can make the move in a week
or two.
--
Ira Abramov ; whois:IA58 ; www.scso.com ; all around Linux enthusiast
"Absolutely nothing should be concluded from these figures except that
no conclusion can be drawn from them."
(By Joseph L. Brothers, Linux/PowerPC Project)
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