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Re: issues with the linux.org.il domain



On Mon, Aug 14, 2000, Ira Abramov wrote about "issues with the linux.org.il domain":
> 
> Hey list...
> 
> I'm bringing this issue to public attention, since I have repeatedly
> asked Jonathan Ben-Avraham to do it himself, and he refuses. I'll try to
> describe the situation as objectively as I can.

Here are my thoughts on the issue.

These days, domain names are worth money (much like real-estate), and may even
be worth more in the future (but who knows, maybe this whole crappy will be
dumped in the future). Anyway, I understand why Mr. Ben-Avraham would not want
to "give" the *ownership* of the domain name to you, Maddog, or anybody else.

As a (not-very-related) example, just look at what is happening now with
Kibbutzim in the merkaz area of Israel. When they were given land by the
State of Israel, the land wasn't really worth much, and giving them land for
free was viewed as "patriotic", "right", "not-for-profit", "idealistic", etc,
and they were (quite rightly) viewed as the best use for that land. Several
decades later, not much of the idealism is left, and small groups of people
control very expensive real-estate without every paying for it - and some of
them are taking advantage of that, unfortunately.

Anway, here is my suggestion (which of course won't be worth much if Mr.
Ben-Avraham won't accept it): Let him remain the registered owner of the
domain, but let Ira (or "IGLU" or Maddog or whomever) be registered as a
proxy allowed to make changes to the domain (or "technical contact", or
whatever you want to call it). As the real owner, Ben-Avraham would be able
to revoke Ira's proxy privilages if he wishes.
If that suggestion doesn't work, then the second best thing is for Ben-Avraham
to let Ira's IP (or whomever) act as the nameserver for the linux.org.il.

If Ben-Avraham doesn't go for any of these solutions, and doesn't present
alternative plans (i.e., he's obviously allowed to open his own "linux.org.il"
site with free Linux content, not an ad to his company), then it is perhaps
possible for Linus to sue him. But don't bet on it - it sounds like a difficult
battle (and IANAL) and I don't see anybody going ahead with it.

> some of the people more active on the organizational core of this group
> are aware that for some time there has been a communicatrion problem
> between us (me?) and the holder of the linux.org.il domain, Mr. Jonathan
> Ben-Avraham. for the last 6 months, during the move to the new IGLU

If, for some reason, Ben-Avraham has a personal problem with Ira, then I'm
sure we can find someone else to do the DNS changes (which is really quite
easy work :)) - I even volunteer myself if that is needed.

> masters of the linux.org.il domain name, and has YET TO EXPLAIN WHY. he
> refused my requests for a phonecall, refused to explain it here in
> public. My own plans for iglu.org.il are and will always be publicly and

This is really nasty. Ben-Avraham, if you're reading this, PLEASE agree to
have a short phonecall with Ira about this. It's not like Ira has any malicious
intent to take over your domain name and make money off it, or anything.
And I assume you don't have such plans, either, at the moment.

> clearly known, I'll be happy to give it away or share the control for
> whatever reason or need of the group, and will never abuse it, just ask
> me and I'll add you as technical or zone contact, I think by past action
> I have proved my intentions.

Ira, please be aware that such promises are *NEVER* enough. Sometimes people
get f***ed over even by their closest friends or family. You'll have to
*assure* Ben-Avraham that you won't abuse it, for example by keeping him as
the domain owner, and you'll only be the technical contact (which is obviously
allowed to make changes to the registration).

> This situation is putting a big question mark on Mr. Ben-Avraham's
> motives and future plans for the linux.org.il domain. After threatening
> him he finally sugested that iff an Amuta was started he would consider
> relinquishing control, however as we all know this was discussed in the
> past several times and forsaken even for REAL reasons like money
> donations from sponsors, so starting the whole beaurocracy mess would be
> rediculous.

Ira, again, you must understand him too: An Aumuta is not just a beaurocracy:
it is also a legal framework (with a board, overseeer, etc.) to make sure that
no single person attempts to take over the Amuta's assets (in this case,
the domain name). Without such an Amuta he can never be sure that if he
gives you full ownership of the domain name you won't abuse it sometime in
the future.

> c. Me and JBA have ben the most active part of this discussion, neither
>    should be in control of the domain. I sugested a list of impartial
>    individuals from this group to control the domain and he ignored it.

Be careful when listing a whole list of individuals as "owners" of a domain:
Some time in the future one of them might decide to fight with the rest on
what is done with that domain. Look at what happens when serveral family
members inherit one asset :(
The benefit of an Amuta is that it is a group of people with clear rules about
how decisions are made (e.g., board, voting, etc), and the people in the Amuta
who lost the vote just have to accept it and be quiet.

> d. access to the DNS on JBA's is slow, and he is slow to answer requests
>    for changes in the server's zone.

BTW, if you need a secondary DNS server, I can host it on the ivrix.org.il
server. Don't know how fast you consider it, but you can check it out for
yourself.
When the general population of Linux-activists can get @linux.org.il addresses
(maybe just forwarding addresses), I can probably even let you use ivrix.org.il
as a secondary mail exchange (i.e., relay).

> b. Seeing as IGLU will possibly never become an Amuta, the next body
> responsible should be Linux International (headed by maddog Hall,
> trusted by Linus himself). JBA will transfer ownership of the domain to
> them and they will let us legally and freely use the domain as intended.

Do we have any lawyer, CPA, or something like that in our group? Creating
an Amuta is *not* impossible, and many small organizations do it. Why
are we not at least trying to do that? (Again, only if we have someone who
knows how to go about doing this. I wouldn't even know where to begin).

But you're right, we shouldn't wait for the amuta to resolve the domain-name
update issue.

> contact maddog about his visit to Israel next month, both about an IGLU
> dinner, but also to discuss and consult/play judge on our domain issue
> here.

First, make sure that Ben-Avraham accepts him as an arbitrator...

> If you feel even more militant: ask him what to do about linux.co.il and
> linux.net.il next.

Who cares about these? Let Linus, VA-Linux, or whatever, fight whatever
companies are holding these sites. Do you know what? I wouldn't really
object if some Linux-selling company got hold of "linux.co.il". They shouldn't
use linux.org.il, though.

> The discussion is now open for the list to decide on action with or
> against Mr. Ben-Avraham, I have given up on trying to cooperate with him
> or figure out his motives.

Mr. Ben-Avraham, if you have something personal against Ira, I'm willing to
talk to you too and see what can be worked out. (I swear) I have no personal
vesting in any part of this issue. My phone number and email address are in my
signature below.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |          Monday, Aug 14 2000, 13 Av 5760
nyh@math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |If you lost your left arm, your right
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |arm would be left.

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