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Re: ircII and Hebrew
guy keren wrote:
>
> On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, David Brauman wrote:
>
> > > > Even after "/set EIGHT_BIT_CHARACTERS ON" and "/set TRANSLATION LATIN_1"
> > > > it ofcourse types backwards and, you guessed it, displays other people's
> > > > hebrew wrong (backwards. Windows stuff.)
> >
> > > define 'wrong' - there's no standard for hebrew on IRC yet.
> >
> > mIRC is the de-facto standard. ISO 8859-8 Hebrew.
>
> the above is not a definition. it's ambigous. you forgot to add 'visual'
> or 'logical'.
>
> this 'standard' doesn't work on any non-windows/mac system (and please
> stop telling me they are the bulk of the market, we're not promoting
> windows here, i hope).
And what about UNIX? Please fix to "non-Windows/max/UNIX system"!
All of the hardware vendors of UNIX stations support logical
order. All of the serious packages (e.g. Tivoli, Oracle, Arc/Info,
Netscape, etc.) support logical order, most of them support *ONLY*
logical order (and not visual order!). Even when you have visual
order, it is only for compatibility purposes and the default mode
is logical order.
You may ask what about a UNIX without Hebrew support: well, this
UNIX does not support logical order, but it doesn't support visual
order too! It simply doesn't support Hebrew!
The same strange claim was claimed when Snunit and others decide
that visual order is better for Windows users. They claimed that
users in U.S. don't have enough money to order Hebrew Windows.
But without Hebrew, they can not type Hebrew! and they still have
to import software (e.g. fonts, etc.). and many other open
questions that somebody prefered to ignore them :-(
> > You can "/set TRANSLATION LATIN_1" which is, if you'll look at the
> > client code, not a file but a simple raw translation table == no
> > translation. Then you can use your Hebrew.
> > However, you -also- need to "/set EIGHT_BIT_CHARACTERS ON" so the input
> > line will display what you type.
>
> but i asked, how do you *type* those hebrew characters without using a
> proper keyboard mapping? using some nifty hebrew-in-windows or
> hebrew-in-xtermh thing? care to tell me your secret?
>
> you know, the keyboard won't generate hebrew codes unless you ask the
> program/interface to assume the keyboard is in hebrew mode.
He still may use keyboard manager, but there are much better
solutions.
> > Well yesterday I've done just that, but as an ircII script. No hebrew
> > commands or help though - everything is screened smoothly.
> > It handles public text, private messages, notices, dcc chats and topic
> > changes. I couldn't think of where else I would find Hebrew.
> > (I left channel names reversed for other scripts' sake. It isn't very
> > important either. Besides #'ivrit', and sometimes #'sihot', I don't know
> > of any Hebrew channels.)
> > Basically it has one function that takes a line and reverses the word order,
> > then reverses every word that contains a Hebrew letter. (English, numbers,
> > etc. are kept staight mIRC-like.)
>
> sounds like a slightly wrong algorithm. would it work on the following
> string: abc<aleph><bet><gimel>123def ??
> and alternatives?
> what about question marks, etc..?
This is one of the simplest cases. There are hundreds of special
cases, but it is easy to support all of them. My algorithm does
it. It is so compatible, that even the cases that Microsoft
algorithm yields strange things, my algorithm yields the same.
Now, please stop discussing this boring subject. I think that
in a very short time there will be better alternatives, by
chatting through the Web. There are already good Java applets
for this purpose, so why developing Hebrew for the old world?
--
Eli Marmor
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