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Re: hebrew under MS



I really didn't intend to enter this old and controversial subject
in this thread, but I see that I can't avoid. Sorry!

Erez Doron wrote:
> 
> Eli Marmor wrote:
> >
> > Erez Doron wrote:
> >
> > > Microsoft has an option to print text in both directions (i.e
> > > left->right, and right-> left).
> > >
> > > the default is left to right for english but right to left for hebrew
> > > ( the hebrew version of win95)
> > >
> > > to solve the problem of writing hebrew on wrong direction under
> > > microsoft, just
> > > use a hebrew font without microsoft knowing its hebrew, and then it will
> > > write it left to right.
> > >
> > > ( dont ask me how, I dont know, but I remeber that was the solution in
> > > this case)
> >
> > Not exactly. This is the "solution" for something else (displaying
> > LTR/Visual under the Hebrew Windows), and I can't call it just
> > solution (without ` " ') since the problem is not the Hebrew support
> > but the original string.
> >
> 
> how come is the problem in the original string if it displayed itself
> o.k.
> under unix browser ?!

First of all, it depends on the mode under UNIX. When you use Hebrew
support (not only of El-Mar, but also of IBM, etc.) and choose the
logical (=implicit) directionality, you'll see this string reversed.
Of course, if the order that a string will be drawn on the screen
without Hebrew support is more important for you than the order that
the same string will be drawn when there *is* Hebrew support, then
you're right, but I think it's a strange way to decide what is
correct and what is not.

What I try to say, is that if you display a string *incorrectly* and
you get it on the screen *correctly*, then it's the best indication
that the string itself is not correct...

The important point is that you claim that the name "Doron" (I'm
afraid that not everybody here can read Hebrew letters, so I use the
English name), begins by Nun Soffit and ends by Dallet. It will be
sorted and placed in a dictionary in the letter "Nun" (or Nun
Soffit?). In your keyboard, you will have to enter the letters from
Nun Soffit, through Vav Resh Vav, to Dallet. When the application
will break the name "Erez Doron" in the middle, the first part (Erez)
will be placed at the last line, and the last part (Doron) will
remain at the first line. I can continue and mention dozens of
anomalies and strange behavior cases of this "correct" string.

Since it is so clear (to everybody that deals with bi-directionality)
what is the correct way, you can see a migration of everybody to this
standard: Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Accent/Kivun, etc. Unicode forces
using of logical order. All the RFCs of IETF, too. The Israel Standards
Organization considers to put the Visual directionality out of the
standards (!!!!!!), because it does not define a directionality of
Hebrew support, but only a directionality of Hebrew unsupport...

What is my personal opinion in this issue?  Well, in the beginning I
supported only the Visual order. But I could not ignore the truth, so
I invested much time in supporting logical too. I still support visual,
but the logical is the default in most of my tools, so you can add more
companies to the honored list from the previous paragraph: Sun, HP, SGI,
DEC, Data-General, and most of the software houses and representations.
I support Visual better than Logical, but contrary to other people, I
am honest to admit that the Visual order is totally incorrect.

It is legitimate to prefer the Visual method, but not *because* it is
"correct"; << *although* it is incorrect>> will be a better phrasing.

P.S.
As I said in the previous message, you mix "directionality" with
"direction". Setting the direction in Microsoft is done only by
<Ctrl><Shift> and by modifying the source of the application. The
"Eurofont" and "Shiuch-Fontim" and "markbidi" and pressing the right
button of the mouse on the "Ayin" and all the other funny workarounds,
don't change the direction from LTR to RTL or vice versa, but only
bypass the Hebrew support and change the *directionality* from Logical
to Visual.

-- 
Eli Marmor
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