[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: OFF TOPIC : ISDN.NET and Linux.



Hi,

I hope this is the last email I'll have to reply about this issue :)

Eli Marmor wrote:
> 
> Before answering the question, I'd ask you not to begin a
> flaming war, it is really off topic!
> 
> Stanislav Malyshev a.k.a Frodo wrote:
> 
> > AF> hmmm, I believe they are losing money anyway. 34$ for a 64k isdn line.
> > AF> that's suicide in Israel int'l line costs.
> >
> > Well, if they are doing it, they expect to have something from it. I don't
> > think that isdn.net is a charity fund. Anyway, no one knows a real cost
>                            ^^^^^^^
> > (not what NV says to you) of a line in Israel. At least, I don't. Do you?
> 
> I do:
> 
> 1. Cost of international lines is about $55,000 per T1. Since
>    ISDN.NET obligates for at least 7.5Kb (Kilobits, not KB) per
>    customer (http://www.isdn.net.il/revolution/element4.htm),
>    it means: 55000*7.5/1536/10= $27 (I know, satellite lines are
>    cheaper, but ISDN.NET uses Optical lines). Plus payments for
>    foreign ISPs: $3 per customer. Total: $30

NO NO NO! KILOBYTE! (64Kbits=8 KILOBYTES)!

Eli, I think your calculations is WAY wrong. Who says that we need to
pay per customer.

second, you're looking at a T1 only. But we also got another E1 and
another T1 (to IIX), so
now try to calculate it!


> 2. POPs around Israel, many lines+modems, leased lines between
>    the POPs, rent for sites, a leased line to IIX + IIX charge,
>    etc.: about $10 per customer.

Again, you're thinking in ANALOG terms. Who the fuck needs modems? what
for? have you 
heard about PRI? 

> 3. Equipment, routers, servers, etc.: about $10 per customer.

Again, Koor is another owner of our ISP, so don't you think we get
equipment REALLY cheap? 
(clue - MUCH MUCH less then you think in ANY term - and I won't give
prices)

> 4. Offices: about $5 per customer.
> 5. Salaries: only $10 per customer (including management, system
>    administrators, administration, BASIC support, NOT including
>    EXTRA support which is charged by ISDN.NET separately).
> 6. Advertizing, marketing, etc.: about $3 per customer.
> 7. Billing costs: about $2 per customer.
> 8. One time gifts (ISDN line, a modem, first time installation,
>    etc.): about $8 per customer (after dividing by 24 months).
> 
> Total: $78. A real charity ("Chessed Shell Emet" :-)
> And the prices ($32-$35 per 64K, $42-$45 per 128K, all for
> unlimited use, i.e. flat rate) are similar to other ISPs (e.g.
> Internet-Gold).

you compare us to Internet Gold??? I'm willing to give you something to
try:

Put 2 PC's with ISDN lines, and set scripts to connect to Intenet Gold
and one to us.
try to surf ANY time of day or night (even at 10 PM to 2 AM) and see
who's faster.

One thing I can tell you - Maybe our support team are not the best, but
you don't hear
any complains about surfing speed - even at other ISDN based users who
connect to other ISP.

We expand/add bandwidth much faster than ANY ISP in Israel.

> 
> Now 2 questions:
> 1. Why?
> 2. Where do the finances come from?
> 
> 1. Why: The costs of international lines will be cut. To be more
>    specific: Sometimes in the near future (a year from now?), the
>    costs will be 1/10 (one tenth!) of the current. The ISPs will
>    start to make money. But only those which will survive. So
>    everybody wants to be the biggest and to "catch" as more
>    customers as possible. That's (BTW) the reason why you must
>    obligate for 24 months in most of the deals. And don't forget
>    that Bezeq pays the ISPs for each new ISDN customer.

It won't be that soon. Bezeq soon will struggle with Kavei Zahav and
Barak about the new optic fiber
that will connect Israel (I'm talking about a new fiber optic - not the
current one).

Why Bezeq will fight? Because they want to get in HARD to the Internet
Business with HDLC modems. So 
they're planning a big fight....

About prices which will goes down to 1/10 of a price to ISP - I think
you should check again your
sources.

> 
> 2. Where is the money from (I know, Koor, Globes, Telrad, but
>    these are not charity institutes, as well): As we saw, the costs
>    per customer are about $80, and the income from him are $32-$45.
>    The costs per frame-relay customers are similar (though you
>    don't have to maintain POPs, ISDN lines, modems, lines between
>    the POPs, one time gifts, etc.). To be more specific: Frame-relay
>    customer costs for the ISP (64K, maximal CIR - as in ISDN, no
>    limits): $65. Since the ISPs limit their frame-relay customrs
>    (8% or 15%, low CIRs, etc.), the real costs are even lower: $60.
>    If you want a higher CIR or a higher limit, you must pay much
>    money. Contrary to this low costs, frame-relay customers pay
>    about ten times the prices of ISDN customers (!). BTW: ISDN.NET
>    cut the prices of frame-relay, but till beginning of 1998, even
>    ISDN.NET charged frame-relay customers about $400 for minimal
>    lines (of course, 128K, with high CIR, and no limits, may exceed
>    $1000 at some ISPs!).

Again - You got this calculation WAY wrong. this calculation will suit
Netvision and Internet Gold.

We got totally other technologies, equipment - hence costs. (don't
belive me? ask Publicom)

> 
> In other words, there is a cross subsidy. So if anybody wants to
> make money, open a new ISP, with no private customers (dial-up/ISDN
> etc.) but only frame-relay and leased lines. Charge them lower than
> the other ISPs. And take the money to your pockets, instead of to
> subsidize the loosing prices of the private customers. And save some
> IPs for me, I'll be your customer (instead of being the "Para
> Cholevet" of other ISPs).
> 
> Conclusion #2: If you are a private customer, DO NOT WAIT! The deals
> for ISDN customers are VERY attractive!
> 
> BTW: Don't tell me that ISDN users pay Bezeq per each Peima; Frame-
> relay users pay Bezeq as well, and much money!

Unfortunetly it's true. you pay 2 Peimot mon-e for 128K EVEN that you
got the same 2 wires as before when
you had an Analog line. Why? ask Bezeq.

> 
> P.S. I am a frame-relay customer  :-(
> --
> Eli Marmor

Eli - if you were living in Holon, you could of join to Bezeq experiment
with HDLC. this would DEFINETLY would
save you your Frame relay costs...

Hetz